GCXI Changes & Improvements

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by dndgeek, Mar 28, 2018.

  1. mwisconsin

    mwisconsin Administrator Staff Member

    You haven't described any advantage we don't already have in the Evergreen ballroom. We only used 2/3rds of the available space (Evergreen 3 was still a separate room), so there's still years of expansion built into that location. The room is enclosed and carpeted, so loudness vs. other gamers is not a factor. We have access to food and bathrooms (much more so than in prior years, when we had to go upstairs for anything).

    I spent time walking around that wing of the convention, and we were only taking up the one room. There were plenty of opportunities for people to run games in other rooms, in the open gaming areas, or in any of the gaming rooms next to the auxiliary vendor area. I spent 10 minutes down there just fascinated with an HMGS table layout.

    If you're concerned with your personal game schedule and your personal travel time between games, I think that's a conversation to have with Dave Conant or Skip Williams, who are in charge of putting games in particular locations.
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  2. Khasimir

    Khasimir Footpad

    No, I'm referencing the megaphone or airhorn that was being used. Frequently. You know, the one Gamehole publically apologized to the rest of the con about on social media.
  3. Khasimir

    Khasimir Footpad

    Try gaming in the rooms across from AL. I did, and it was loud. I'm curious, what exactly do you think happens to the noise when the entire AL gaming room yells HUZZAH?

    I wasn't trying to describe an advantage. I was describing that it's in no way, shape or form a step back for AL to move to the Forum rooms.

    If I was, I would have mentioned it. I'm actually a good time manager, so I had zero issues with going all over the lodge to game. Truth be told, I loved the steps I was getting in each day.

    The fact of the matter, is that forcing the OSR crowd to go between the Forum rooms and the main lodge for gaming is a disincentive to them. Considering that Gary Con is, or at least always has been an OSR con, and assuming the direction of the con isn't to move away from this, creating disincentives for it's base is a strange proposition. Especially when there's a convenient solution that is a win/win for both OSR and AL.
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  4. dndgeek

    dndgeek Troubadour

    It's great for conventions that aren't focused on the roots of the hobby, but instead the D&D and AD&D folks that built this convention got stuck on the other end of the hotel.
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  5. mwisconsin

    mwisconsin Administrator Staff Member

    Are you conflating two conventions, now? At Gary Con, we had no such thing. The noise level outside the Evergreen Ballroom was tame in the "worst" circumstances. The Grand Geneva is well insulated against noise travelling from room to room.

    You make that distinction in this very reply.

    Why wouldn't it be a disincentive to anyone else you're not grouping into the "OSR crowd"?

    You keep saying it's a win/win for AL, and as I've pointed out, the Forum environment provides no "win" for AL over our current accommodations, and, as you've pointed out, it provides a "disincentive."

    The only conclusion I can draw here is that you're asking that AL be hidden away from the rest of the convention, as we have been in prior years.

    AL has been present at 40% of all Gary Cons, to date. To say that Gary Con has "always been an OSR con" is to once again ignore the contributions others have been making to the convention for years, now.
    Tink333 likes this.
  6. mwisconsin

    mwisconsin Administrator Staff Member

    AL took up one room of the convention. The Evergreen Ballroom. We didn't even take up the whole room. D&D and AD&D folks that "built this convention" were free to play in any of the rooms of the convention, including rooms across the hall from us, rooms below us on the first floor, and anywhere else they were happy to play.

    To focus on us, rather than, say, Jolly's group, or the HMGS or LoW groups, is, in my opinion, particularly telling.

    I know you don't take part in it, @dndgeek, but the emailed and verbal abuse I (and Joe) take for daring to run Adventurer's League at this convention is over the top. I run Adventurer's League at a number of other conventions, and I never receive this sort of reception any place else.
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  7. dndgeek

    dndgeek Troubadour

    We play wherever we're given space to play. And yes, built this convention. Without them, there would be no GaryCon. Where was the AL in 2009? Oh that's right, non-existent.

    Why would we focus on them? They're the roots!
    So, why are you replying to me about it?
  8. Khasimir

    Khasimir Footpad

    No, I'm not. So what were the cheers that were coming into rooms across from AL on Saturday night? The first time it happened, I was curious to know the source. The second and third times are when it dawned on me that we were playing across from AL and confirmed by walking over there.

    Are you suggesting the vast majority of AL gamers at Gary Con play in non-AL games and would be stuck moving all over the hotel for their games? If so, I'd be wondering if Giz has any data that addresses the badgeholders who play only AL games.
    In my experiences playing AL at XIII and IX, the DM's and players I gamed with were only there for AL. While I've seen some AL players playing 5e games outside of AL, I'm rather skeptical considerable amounts of AL players are spending a large chunk of the con also playing CoC, miniatures, DCC and/or AD&D.

    Ahh yes, classic if/then logic. If I don't want AL to stay where it is (really translating to if I don't agree with you), then I want it hidden (banished) in some obscure corner. There's all sorts of wrong with your conclusion, but it's pretty clear that I can't stop you from being defensive about your AL segment of Gary Con unless I agree with you.
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  9. mwisconsin

    mwisconsin Administrator Staff Member

    Because they were playing a few hundred feet from us, on that end of the building.

    Because it appears as if you're focusing on AL, when in fact there are more than a few others at that end of the building.
  10. mwisconsin

    mwisconsin Administrator Staff Member

    I have reason to be defensive, K. As I've mentioned in this thread alone, we're the focus of ire regardless of where we're at in the convention. 2 years ago, our promotional materials outside our room (materials owned by Wizards) were defaced. This year I was sent threatening emails and IMs. Is it a surprise to you, in that context, that I should consider a suggestion that AL, and only AL, be moved to the other end of the building?
    Tink333 likes this.
  11. Melf

    Melf Administrator Staff Member

    Jason has the right idea. The bulk of events are automatically programmed to available tables per some rules established by the Events Team. So Dave and Skip are not manually assigning names to tables, that would be a Herculean task. So of you see a problem let us know soonest and we can tweak the tables if needed.

  12. dndgeek

    dndgeek Troubadour

    But you’re not the roots of gaming! We’re happy to have them in the center. We’re not as happy to have brand-new 5e in the center of OSR gaming. I'm not sure why that's hard to understand.

    Yes, because THEY ARE THE ROOTS OF GAMING and we’re happy to have them in the middle of it all, where they can be easily reached. And they’re not loud. And that response has nothing to do with people sending you messages or why you chose to complain to me about it.

    I'd love to have everything, as long as it fits. If there's enough OSR stuff to fill the con and enough people interested enough to fill those events, then we don't need anything else at a con that is a celebration of the roots of gaming. If there isn't enough interest and other things are filling seats and paying bills, great. If those other things start to get in the way of the purpose of the con, that is an issue in my humble opinion. Maybe some would like to see GaryCon grow into the same old thing as every other con, with everyone playing the newest editions of everything. If that's what it becomes, I'll find another OSR con or start my own because that's not what I've come the past ten years for, as there wouldn’t be any special meaning for Gary, TSR or anything related.
    Jarlaxle likes this.
  13. Melf

    Melf Administrator Staff Member

    Gentlemen (and Ladies if any are enegaged in this conversation),

    I am disappointed to be reading the back and forth here and the tensions rise. I have little use for edition wars. I prefer playing AD&D, however I don’t claim any more prestige or believe the fun derived has more merit than someone playing PF, HM, 5e, or Villians and Vigilantes. You are al welcome to civilly debate of course and I don’t wish to take away your right to do so, but perhaps we can find better ways to bring the community together and not drive wedges between. We are family.

    Gary Con is about Gaming. It is not solely about D&D or games authored by my Dad or before a particular date. It’s a celebration of the life and works of my Dad certainly, and it has expanded rightfully to include the founders of the hobby. However as I have pointed out many times my Dad loved lots of games- miniatures, board games, cards, chess, role-playing and even computer games too!

    To the point of where to schedule games and groups- we look at spaces and make decisions for the best fit and function based on our judgment. We looked at the forums for AL and/or PFS last year and decided against it. We will look again this year and if it makes sense we will do it. It won’t be done to isolate or ostracize any group. That includes the LoWG or other OSR for that matter.

    I am very happy to see so much passion for Gary Con. I love this event and have spent thousands of hours working on it. I appreciate the Old Guard, the Arneson/MN contingent, OSR Guests and the PF and 5e Guests. We all come together to enjoy the camaraderie and celebration of Gaming that is Gary Con. I hope that ou will all continue to offer ideas to help make it better.


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  14. dndgeek

    dndgeek Troubadour

    Whatever physically fits.

    Yes, but OSR first since we can’t have everything.

    As long as everything fits.

    What a pathetic choice of words. Everyone is welcome at GaryCon and games aren't people. Arbiters? The usual: Luke, Dave, Skip, et al.

    I guess you haven't been attending GaryCon very long then or your memory sucks.

    I got that from attending the early conventions and from garycon.com…

    From the GaryCon II website: “Gary Con II will be 3 days of old school gaming fun in honor of the Father of Role-Playing Games, Gary Gygax.” (https://web.archive.org/web/20100209001903/http://www.garycon.com:80/index.php?limitstart=5)

    From the GaryCon III website: “Gary Con III will be 3 days (58 hours!) of old school gaming fun in honor of the Father of Role-Playing Games, E. Gary Gygax.”


    From the GaryCon IV webpage: “Gary Con is pleased to announce that Gary Con IV will be moving to a 4 day convention and the dates for Gary Con IV will be Thursday, March 22nd, through Sunday, March 25th, 2012. That's 4 days of old school gaming in the place where it all began: Lake Geneva, Wisconsin.”


    From the GaryCon VII webpage: “By 2010, the Legion Hall no longer had the capacity to host the growing event and its participants. As a result, the event was moved to a local lodge west of the town where it has been held ever since. Convention organizer, Luke Gygax, told a local paper Gary Con was "...meant to be a more intimate event, reminiscent of the formative years of the gaming industry," and that is why it has become a special gathering for so many each year.


    Much of the 2012-2014 data was lost in a server crash IIRC or I’d have more examples, but at least through GaryCon VII a reference to old-school gaming was right there on the home page of every single GaryCon.

    Again, I have no problem with any game or edition. I just don't want to see GaryCon turn into the same convention as everything else, because then it is no longer special and I'd like to see the convention that celebrates Gary remain special. What are one of the things that makes it special? The interest in OSR events, which is negligible in many other places. I don't care if tons of people come to play 5e, but I do care if it is at the expense of other early games and editions. I don't care if the AL is at GaryCon playing new games, but I do care if it detracts from the special OSR events of the con.
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
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  15. dndgeek

    dndgeek Troubadour

    elf games? Listen StarWarzDude, I don't know what you're trying to imply, but I run everything from Legends of Wargaming stuff to new card games and board games, so I'm not beholden to anything, but if you're putting down D&D, then I don't value your opinion and the conversation should just end here.
    I have zero hate for any game. I know nothing of AL or 5e other than neither was here for most of the previous GaryCons, so grow up and stop putting false words into people's mouths. And guess what? Someone has to be "stashed in the far corner of the convention" as you put it and I'd rather it be the "new" games than the "old" games since the con has traditionally been focused on and is known for the "old" games, which were played by Gary and are actually spotlighted. It's my opinion and you can disagree with it without getting your robe ruffled.

    Yes, wanting two groups to switch places because I think it works better for the con is incredibly elitist. Insert eye roll here. If you have issues with others, please direct it towards them.
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  16. Tink333

    Tink333 Footpad

  17. Tink333

    Tink333 Footpad

    While it's possible the above is not meant to be divisive, it sure comes across that way.
  18. Tink333

    Tink333 Footpad

    Much appreciated, Luke. This is my favorite con because of how welcoming you have been all along. As you know, I wasn't a gamer when I first attended.

    I have made so many friends at Gary Con, and I look forward to seeing each of them, even though often we don't play the same games.
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  19. sir jon

    sir jon Spellbinder

    Yup. Sure does. You're an adult, you'll get over it.

    Regarding my thoughts to Tom about all of the "organized play" going to the Forums, it mostly has everything to do with the excess amount of space there to grow. The place is so big now there is no possible way it'd be relegating them or ostracizing the "organized play" groups there, because they could not, would not, be alone there. The sheer amount of people standing around outside the Evergreen rooms this year on the steps, the hall floor, the doorways was exceptionally telling in the popularity of that style of gaming. It was also a hazard that I'm surprised didn't come up in a discussion from the Grand Geneva to the con staff. (Maybe it did - I'm not privvy to it). Considering the hall space outside the Forums - with big, cushy seats/sitting spaces - is large and designed for that sort of crowd, it just screams, "Bring your people here!"

    Y'know, there was a time I could quote a certain Luscious saying, "NO LARP AT GARYCON!" Well, those days are obviously over. Crying about being "stuck" in the 'basement' of the Grand Geneva for two years probably should stop, too. The "organized play" groups have been a part of the con for some time now, in various function. I see them growing quite a bit for the next few years, which is why I think they're better off in the Forums, where growth can continue for them. It isn't my or any other badge holder's fault that the design of the building is particularly unusual compared to the everyday convention, which GaryCon is not, nor should ever be.

    I wonder how it'd be handled if ALL of the "organized play" tables were scattered about the con instead of grouping them together. That might even the scales out a bit, if we're just looking at it as an even playing field of positioning within the convention space. Think on it.
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  20. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Troubadour

    Wait, what?!

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