I agree that 4th Ed. is not D&D, but I have spent years playing some great campaigns in 2nd & 3.5 editions. They are D&D in my eyes- this current version is far from the original inspiration. It's more like you need to be wearing tights & sporting red capes.
On this point, I believe what MAJ Bill overriding point was that the "already small, fringe group" is gamers, and he thought it interesting how even THAT fractures further. Like "gamer cliques" WITHIN "gamer cliques." Correct me if I'm wrong, MAJ Bill, or feel free to elaborate. But it is sort of silly, because it does kind of seem to be the case - present company excluded, of course.
:shock: :? :shock: Who.......... told you about ........... the ... tights & capes???? . . . . . They didn't mention the baby-eating part did they? . . . . Eeewwps .....
And last (for now) but certainly not least: As I mentioned before, Gary Gygax has touched and influenced so many in ways none of us can even CALCULATE. Shapes and manners we can't QUANTIFY. As I also mentioned before, I think when we really get down to the heart of the matter, the core issue is that it bears the Dungeons & Dragons name - that which we all wish had remained in it's rightful hands. But I think there's a valid argument to be made that the folks actually working on the game - especially by now - had nothing to do with those events, AND they are in no way intent on doing Gary Gygax's memory any disservice whatsoever in opting for a different game mechanic. Which incidentally, Donal, would explain the complete rewrite of monsters and classes into "something unrecognizable" (the mechanic). When looked at in it's context, it's suddenly recognizable.
I won't tolerate this kind of innuendo and unstantiated accusals Lulu! Be prepared to produce photographic evidence or retract your poorly phrased comments! :evil:
[once I was finally able to stop laughing .... ] Ya know ... it must be instinctive - even as I typed I wondered, "do I really wanna use the word 'touched' with this crowd?" ("crowd" mainly meaning "Luke") But much to my chagrin, I opted to use The Keeper's word anyway. I REALLY shoulda known better! DOH! >_<
Okay, I've played 4E but I must say that the people I've played with have not had a shred of role playing in their game. It's been pure hack-n-slash all the way. Heck, had to kick two of the guys off my PC one night because they spent a frakkin' hour using the 4E software to munchkin out their PC the best way possible. Drove me nuts. OTOH, I role up a character from a system like Hackmaster that works at being "old school" and find that right from the get go with the quirks and flaws you've got some role playing action going on. Heck, my wife even wants to play it. So, i've told these chuckleheads I hang with that if we play any 4E and they want me to run it they better get read for some house ruled quirks and flaws or it's their a**.
Aye - a personality is mandatory.* My pc's, as well as those of my players have pretty detailed backstories, and traits, mannerisms, habits, etc. born out of that history. Basically just kind of a GIVEN throughout WHICHEVER edition (or other rpg) I've played. Kinda why I haven't really gotten the "it's not a role playing game" argument, because, IF you're role playing ... then it IS role playing. Right? *For the record (and as you know), munchkin hack-n-slashers have been around a really long time - they're hardly a product of this edition. DM's have had to wrangle various players for decades to get them beyond the personality of a fence post! And really, I've got nothing against trait/flaw/whatever tables whatsoever - they can serve as good inspiration, but they really shouldn't be needed. A player ought to just be able to imagine another person (their character), think about it, and come up with someone they (and preferably, the group - certainly the DM) would find interesting and fun. Aaand then you just think like that person would and act accordingly - let the good times (and hopefully lots of 20's on YOUR side of the screen) roll!
Its not the roleplaying, its not the rules its the inappropriateness of the naming and looks. Some of this spills over into roleplaying (using useless world backgrounds) and rules (awkwardly named kung-fooey crap). The key difference between what I play CLASSIC CHAINMAIL/D&D 1974 & Supp.s/Gygaxian AD&D (no OA) isn't some petty sense of superiority at all! Its the opposite. its the feeling that you can literally act/roleplay/joke/write poetry all you want and if you desire crush everything in sight all you want and it doesn't make a difference... the game abides. As long as you don't inject what I call "Williams-isms". To me "Williams-isms" are things with funny names and long stories so that people who have no interest can collect your money while you decipher why you don't need this. Technically, you can take whole tracts of rules from other games and play them inside Gygaxian D&D and as long as you clean them off of "Williams-isms" nobody bats an eye.
Blame it all on Skip!!! Seriously I meant the lady from the family (Dille?) that did the same to Buck Rogers ages before what she would later do to D&D.
Don't pick on Skip. He always seemed like a decent dude when I was growing up and he let me drink as many bottles of Cac Cola as I wanted to while gaming at his house. Honestly, I never really read any of the work he did on D&D products. I am lucky if I read most of the AD&D core books. I pretty much just prefer to play. Now I did read the Mythus stuff cover to cover atleast once and sections several times because you had to! I need to talk to Shalaban and see if he has a good computer program to autmatically calculate what K/S areas feed others. Oops I strayed off topic here....
I have never played 3.0/3.5/4th ED, and have rarely played 2ed ED. :| The main reason not being anything involving the rules or game flavor, but it was the fact that I already owned a game very similar to all the other editions and did not need to waste money buying a game I already had. :shock: As well, for me personally, I would not want to run any other edition as I am happy and familiar with 1st ED. and would be better at presenting and playing in something that I know well. If I ever decide it is time for a change, to move away from D&D, there is always DJMGRPG. At one point Gary thought DJMGRPG was the next step to a superior RPG experience, so I would take a cue from Gary and go from 1st ED AD&D straight to DJMGRPG. @ Luke- I don’t have a computer program but I do have a cross-feeding list from MMM that I have added K/S too from Unhallowed and Changeling. :ugeek:
When I was a kid, my dad played bridge with a guy who was missing a kidney & so had to drink a bunch of Coke to flush his system. Or maybe that was just what my folks told me to explain why he could drink all that soda* & I couldn't. I was in awe of that dude and wanted to be just like him when I grew up. Also as a kid we used to make fun of all the weird jargon in my dad's bridge magazines. I never did learn to play bridge, but I sure do have a lot of books full of incomprehensible jargon! (The pictures are better, though.) * "Pop", for the midwesterners among us - don't want to interfere with the edition wars by starting a preferred-term-for-carbonated-sugar-water one
Hi, I'm new to the forums, sadly missed GaryCon I last year due to a prior commitment to a convention in Platteville, WI... Anyway, Skip and his wife Penny are good folk, I've known them for years online and have had dinner with them a couple of times while driving between my house in Janesville and my wife's family in Minnesota. In regards to editions, I've played since 1981, started with Basic D&D, eventually bought the REd Box Basic Set and started DMing with that, then moved to 1e AD&D, and then 2e AD&D when I couldn't find a Monster Manual locally (Central WI farm country, gotta love it!), and then bought the 3.0 books when they came out...I've lately dabbled in 1e AD&D, 2e AD&D, GURPS 4e, and Boot Hill 3e (my prior commitment in Platteville was to run a Boot Hill game...no one was on board ) As for my preferred game, I guess it's for whatever I want out of the game, 1e for a more Hack & Slash Dungeon Delve, 2e AD&D for more far-reaching "talky" games (granted, I tend to run a mish-mash of 1e and 2e when I run 2e games...)
Thank you, Ihope to be there as well. I've begun negotiations with my wife (also a gamer, though not tothe extent i would like ) and hopefully something can be worked out.
